"Those Boys are Out of Control"

It's been nearly a year since the last time I cried at the playground. In recent months my boys' behavior towards other children has improved dramatically. They're not angels or pacifists by any stretch of the imagination, but enough people at the park call them, "those twins who used to bite," that I can believe that we've finally turned a corner.

So, imagine my surprise on Sunday when we'd been at the park for about ten minutes and Huck threw a handful of sand at another three year old boy's face.

"No," I said firmly. "That is not OK." I know my boys well enough to know that telling them calmly is the best way to get them to respond. When I yell, they keep doing what their doing, but more forcefully.

We've met this boy and his family at the park before. This is both the blessing and the curse of the small town. I turned to tell the boy's mother that I was sorry. She shrugged that familiar empathetic "boys will be boys" shrug.

I turned around just in time to see Huck pick up the little boy's sand bucket and hurl it. Now, I don't know if Huck was aiming at the boy's face, but I intercepted and grabbed Huck and started to carry him to the bench for a time out. That's when Milo stepped in and threw another handful of sand in the boy's face.

Why? Because, that's what identical twins do.

I was clearly outnumbered, everyone watching could see. And people were watching. And if they weren't watching then, they were watching after the father of the boy with sand in his face screamed at Milo, "HEY, CUT IT OUT."

Well, OK. So, he screamed at my kid. I could have screamed back at him, "DON'T YELL AT MY KID. THAT'S MY JOB. AND, BY THE WAY, IT DOESN'T WORK."

But I didn't scream back, because both of my kids had just thrown sand in his son's face and he has a right to be upset. His wife, who was busy wiping sand out of her son's eyes, did not apparently think he had the right and shushed her husband. Suddenly I was in the middle of something I did not at all want to be in the middle of and I wanted to get out of there fast.

With Huck under one arm, I grabbed Milo with the other and was taking them both to the bench when I heard the boy's father loudly respond to his wife's shushing,

"WHAT? THEY HAVE TO BE TOLD. THOSE BOYS ARE OUT OF CONTROL."

I didn't look at the father. I just kept walking to the bench with Huck and Milo and sat them down. At this point the time out was as much for me as it was for them. I put my arms around both of them and told them that it made me very sad when they hurt other kids. I was shaken. I felt like I was going to cry.

As the three of us waited the mandated three minutes for our time out to be over, I didn't cry. And do you know why? Because my kids don't bite other kids anymore. When they see babies now, most of the time they tickle their feet instead of trying to poke out their eyeballs. They're nice kids.

And a father who screams at my three year olds for acting like two year olds and who screams at his wife at the playground has very little to teach me about control.

Comments

[ian t.]

I'll admit I play the part of stranger-disciplining-someone-else's-kids from time to time. When dealing with children that are not mine, however, I *never* raise my voice, and I only react after I've given the other parents the opportunity to discipline their own kids. Sadly, they rarely do.

I applaud you for keeping your cool, Megan. You are stronger than I am. Those are precisely the moments my mind shuts off and the PTSD takes over.

And ditto; your last sentence says it all.

[RookieMom Whitney]

This was posted at an interesting time for me. Today I interviewed a nanny and the boy she already cares for, potentially to share with my daughter. The little boy, 15 months, hits a lot. I felt that I don't want to subject my daughter to that. I don't think there is a problem with the boy - I'm sure he'll grow out of it, or with the parents - I have heard them talk about how the hitting bums them out, but it simply doesn't seem fair to my daughter to put her in a situation where the odds are that she'll be hit in the face at least once each day.

I feel for you, Megan, to have the overwhelming responsibility to decide what's right, who should be yelling, who should be apologizing. But I also feel irate when my child (3 yo boy) gets abused at the playground because someone else didn't act fast enough to prevent it. I would have probably not been able to stop myself from yelling "no throwing sand!"

I've also heard the theory that you should immediately react by lavishing your attention on the victim ("are you ok? i'm so sorry Huck and Milo blah blah") rather than focusing on scolding the boys so that they don't become pleased with the extra attention. I'm not saying it works - just a theory I heard.

[Kathy]

Here is a question posted on Golden Gate Mothers Group and all of the replies. Hope it illuminates:

My 17 month old son has a very mild temperment. I have encountered many situations when we are at the playground, where other children sometimes will push him out of the way when he's playing w/ a certain
part of the play structure so that they can play with it.

I am not quite sure what to say to the other children in these situations and sometimes the parents are not around to intervene. My
son actually does not get upset, he will often just go play w/something else until the other child is done, then he will go back and
play in the original area where he was pushed out of.

I'd love some feedback. Thanks in advance.

Summary of replies:

1. Sounds like mine. I just don’t know what to do.. a few times I have looked around for the mom/nanny but they seem to
missing in action also.. so I just watch them and if I think its getting out of
hand – I will step in nad let the child no not to do this or tha – whatever it
was or redirect the child towards something else. More often then not – when
the caregiver sees someone else talking to the child they step up…

2. I have a mild-mannered boy who is almost 4 and I know
exactly what you're talking about. My son is not a "me-first" kind of kid
but it bugs me to see him get pushed out of the way, even if if doesn't bother
him. When my son
was your child's age I would often intervene and say
in a nice voice to the pushy child, "He wasn't done with that yet" or
"it's not your turn yet." I figured that at least I could model
some actions so my son could see how to nicely maintain a toy/turn/etc. As
my son has gotten older, we have done some role-playing for defensive
tactics. For example, I ask him to hold a toy and then I try to take
it. Before we start we discuss how this is just practice in case other
kids try to take something without asking. He has learned to move the
toy quickly and say, "I'm not done yet." Lately the role playing
has gotten even more complex, where my son will come up with scenarios where
kids do not-so-nice things and we will figure out how to work them out.
Interestingly, this latest approach is something my son came up with.
My goal has
been to help my son be able to assert his needs without
losing his mellow disposition. In the end, sometimes you will also just
have to let things slide and just be grateful you have such and
easy-going kid. Good luck.
3. I had that exact same problem when my daughter was about
that age. I think it's highly appropriate to tell any kid who acts
inappropriately (i.e. hitting, taking toys away, etc.) that they
cannot do that. I say it nicely, but firmly, to the child. I
figured that if my daughter did the same thing, that's how I would
like other adults to treat her.

Hope this helps.

4. I hate to tell you this, but i've run into this a few
million times and it beyond infuriorates me..especially when their nanny or care
giver is too busy being on their cell phone to intervene..i have found a few
things to
work--they don't work every time but it's worth a try..if all else
fails, give the care giver a stare down and that usually works
wonders..depending on the age of the child, you can sometimes say very nicely "you
know you can take turns" or something to that extent--sometimes it works
othertimes it's a waste of energy--especially if there is a language
barrier--which i run into a lot..if your child does get upset, some times that
helps too..my son is also mild mannered and now 2 1/2 and it seems if you can
"take turns" it works out a lot better..i get mad at kids for
pushing--i tell them nicely--"don' t push" if they push again, then
I'm a little more harsh again "don't push"..if they do it a third
time, i get really angry..usually at this point the parent is threatening to
call the police on me so it's probably not the smartest tactic..anyway, good
luck to you..i'd love to see what others say..there are a lot of kids
in this
city who have zero discipline so..good luck..

5. I don't think there is anything wrong with you stepping into
the situation as the adult. All kids need to learn to share, and it is
our responsibility as adults (even if we are not the parent) to help teach the
children. I know it might feel awkward, but I think it is the right thing
to do. I think in today's atmosphere, parents are too afraid to step in
and provide guidance.

Good luck!

6. Could you post a summary of the advice you get? I've
been experiencing the same thing with my 22 month old son. He's real
sweet and would just let the other kids push him or take a toy away from
him. But he would look at me all confused and I feel so bad for him and
helpless. Sometimes even though the parent or caregiver is close by and
witness the whole thing, they either pretend they
didn't see it or just
shrugged, which makes me even madder.
I struggle with always making sure my son waits his turn and be nice and
considerate to other kids, but not knowing what to do when other kids do not
respond in kind. I wonder if he thinks why the other kids get away with
that type of behavior and not him.

7. I usually start with: “Hi there, there are small babies
playing here, too. Please be careful around them.” Or “Sweetie, we don’t push
babies at this park; please ask him gently to move.” Or something humorous
like, “watch out, this baby might reach out and give you a big smooch if you
get too close!”

If it keeps up, I would ask the child to stop and stand
still, and point out where mom/dad/babysitter/ accompanying adult is located
because you need to talk to them. Then it can get trickier—because if that
adult is at all defensive, they’re not
going to be happy to hear you
complain—so I try to find something somewhat diplomatic like “we’re having a
little trouble sharing this space” or “I think the big kids need to use this
space now, so we’re going to move to another area and wait our turn.” Usually
people are overly apologetic anyway, but some of them get peeved. I hope I’m
somehow teaching my daughter to speak up for herself eventually, but not pick a
fight when there’s usually plenty of other spots to enjoy peacefully in the
playground.

8. Although I don't have experience
with it, my gut tells me that it's ok to tell those kids they need to share
that space and to be gentle with other people - I believe in the "it takes
a village" philosophy. I'm sure some parents don't want others
"disciplining" their child, but if you're gentle in your approach
with
them I think it should be ok. It seems to me you need to not let
your kid get pushed around either, and if the other parents aren't there.....

I'd love a summary as my daughter is
1yo and I'm sure we'll encounter this too. thanks!

9. Can you please post a summary of the answers you receive? I
have a 17mo-old son who is the same way! My heart breaks for him but I don't
know how to handle the situation. (or at least, not how to handle it well!) If
there is an attentive mom or caregiver keeping watch it helps, but that's not
always the case. We particularly have issues with other children wanting his
toys - he's very sweet and will hand over the toy, and then the other child
walks off with it. It's gotten that I'm afraid to bring toys to the park.

10. It's appropriate to model correct and polite behavior to
your own child. It is not appropriate to tell other children what
to do, nor
how to behave, except in the case of modeling correct behavior to
your own child and keeping your child safe. (You don't know if
other parents/guardians share your point of view, nor do you know if the
other child has learning or developmental issues.) In all cases, you
can and should step in to whatever extent is necessary to keep your
child safe.
That being said, if an older child who understands language and
appears old enough to "know the social rules of play" pushes
aside your younger child (who does not yet speak and cannot fend for him/
herself), I would tell the older child to move to the side as your
younger child has not yet finished his turn yet. You want to model
behavior to your own child that it's not ok to grab and push. (If you
do
nothing, and your child gets pushed around ..s/he may start to
think it's OK to push around others younger than him/herself. ) If
you have two youngsters of more or less the same age, development
level ... I would see what they do first before intervening with
language/behavior that models how you'd like your child to
play.
I.E. You can have a turn when so and so is done; or .. here's
something else to play with ....etc.

Hope this helps!

11. I can't give you specific advice about pushing (I'd love to
see the summary) but I can give you the advice a mom w/ a masters in early
childhood education gave me about toy grabbing. I think the same would
apply to pushing your son out of the way.

She said to stop a child if he/she tries to take a toy away from yours
or if
yours tried to take a toy another child is using. Simply explain
to the child wanting the toy (or area of the play structure) that your
child is already using it but that he/she can take a turn when your
child is done. Sometime I offer a trade and that helps. The mom said
that if I let other children push or grab toys from my child I was
teaching my child that the way to get what you want is to grab it or
push someone out of the way. Sometimes it's a little awkward telling
another child no in front of their parents but I remember that I need
to be an advocate for my child (now 20 months). And it doesn't always
work - I had one 3 year old yell at me and keep pushing my child so I
gave in. But her behavior just told me how important it is for me to
make sure my child doesn't think grabbing or pushing for
a turn is
right.

12. Perhaps I am not very PC, but when someone else's kid does
this (or something similar) and the parent/nanny does not do anything I
politely correct the child. I also taught my daughter to speak up for
herself once she had the vocabulary –

13. Hi there,
My son is two and a half now, and he was the same way at 17 months. I'd say
that if he's not upset, don't worry about it. If something about the situation
isn't right (like the other child is too violent or if your son seems taken
aback) I don't see anything wrong with saying nicely to the other child,
"No, no, it's our turn now, we'll be done in a minute" or something
like that and gently nudging him or her away. I wouldn't mind if someone said
that to my kid.

My son now will protest if something is important to him, and we didn't do
anything to teach that to him, so it isn't like he's necessarily
learning to be
a doormat. I think people stress too much over little things and think
they'll have lifetime repercussions when a lot of the time it's just a phase.
Just enjoy your good-natured little gentleman!

14. Your son sounds like my 22mo daughter in temperament. We
often run into 3-5 year olds who act very selfishly on the playground.
Sometimes they block her or yell "No!" to my daughter as she
approaches. My daughter is really friendly and wants to meet and play
with everyone and does get puzzled by the hostility.

Although I believe you should not discipline other people's kids,
if there is no one around and I think the older child may even hurt my daughter
by pushing or kicking, I physically block them or give them a stern verbal
warning. One 5-6 year old who was being really obnoxious on a slide,
taking up all of it, I actually said "excuse me!" and asserted
my
presence on the slide so my daughter could take a turn. They tend to give
up eventually.

If the caregiver is around but doesn't care, I just try to move my
daughter away to something else. That doesn't always work. It's not
a bad thing for her to learn how to deal with bullies on the playground
anyway. They will be everywhere in real life.

15. It's amazing - the rudest kids tend to have caregivers who
completely ignore them. I wonder how they will be as adults. I see
this at Rossi and Alta Plaza. At Julius Kahn the kids appear more well
behaved, but that has just been my personal experience.

My daughter went through the same
thing. I think that just rolling with and not showing frustration will
reinforce his willingness to roll with it. As your son gets older he will
begin to get more territorial and will begin
asserting himself. That the
point when he will need you to be more involved in the interaction
to make sure the appropriate sharing occurs. My daughter is 26 months and is definitely more interested in ownership and willing to say-- no I was using it. Then we talk about she
uses it now then the child will use it when it is his/her turn. It helps
reinforce the turns/sharing message that you will be repeating often!

Good luck!

16. doesn't that just break your heart? my daughter is the same
age and has the same mild tempermant. usually for her it's there hasn't been any physical
contact, but when she approaches kids who are a little older who are playing
with something, or touches whatever they're playing with and they become
threatened and say things like, "no, that's mine!" or "you can't
play!", anyway, something to that
effect. I know it's just the nature of these kids
and maybe someday she'll react the same way (I hope not), but it's hard to
see and deal with especially when she's so gentle and nice and is genuinely
interested and curious in them and what they're doing. I guess you can't
protect them from everything and things like that are bound to inevitably
happen and they will have to learn to deal with those types of
people/behaviors on their own. pushing on the other hand is uncalled for and
whoever's watching the kid should reprimand accordingly and if they're not
around, I don't see any reason why you can't.

I'm curious to see what other mom's say, if you can post a summary that

would be great.

thanks!

17. Hi - I know that's a tough one... I watch my daugther at the
playground and many times, I want to jump in (and sometimes I do, when I
really
shouldn't but cannot help myself). But with that said, I really try to
stand back and let her handle the situation, unless it gets physical
fighting over a toy, etc.) or potentially dangerous (kids throwing
sand in her vicinity, etc.)... it's tough, but I want her to learn how
to handle different children/situations . Please post a summary, I'm
interested to hear what other moms have to say.

18. My son was similar at that age and I
used to worry that he was getting pushed around too much. When he got
closer to two, however, he started getting much more assertive and it wasn't
long before we had the opposite concern, ie of trying to teach him to
share! Now he is 3 and dare I say it, plays nicely with others without
running over smaller kids too much. I think these are just natural stages
that kids go through sooner or later and you will likely see it in
your own son
too.

19. My tactics for dealing with pushy
kids (assuming there is no parent monitoring the pushy kids
effectively) are:

- if the pushy kid is the same age,
leave it alone and let the kids sort themselves out. As long as your son
is not distressed there is no need to intervene. If he does get upset
about something, you can hunker down and say something like "Let's ask
this nice little girl to share this space/toy with you" or remove your
child if things are getting violent;

- if the pushy kid is bigger than
yours and repeatedly pushing your kid around, say something in a nice tone of
voice like "Ooh, watch out for the little guy here!" Most
bigger kids are not deliberately pushy to smaller ones, they just are sometimes
excited or impulsive or caught up in an imaginary game and don't pay proper
attention. In most cases I have found
bigger kids instantly say sorry
very sincerely and don't do it again.

- in the rare instance that you get
a pushy bigger kid who pays no attention to your gentle reminder to share/be
careful, you can do one of two things: (1) befriend them and suggest a
game whereby they can involve your toddler too, and you can basically
supervise. I have found this works well with bossy little girls in
particular; or (2) give them The Look, and/or a firm warning in a low voice to
be careful.

Good luck!

20. My daughter is 19 months and when that happens to her I generally say
"wait your turn please, she was playing with that." Then I make
a point of telling my daughter that someone is waiting for a turn and she needs
to finish up. It doesn't always work, but at least it sends the message
to my daughter that I am standing up for her and that it is not okay to
push
someone or take something they are playing with.

21. I 've never had a problem saying "we don't push" to other kids when
their parents aren't around. And on the flip side, I'd wouldn't have a problem
with someone saying that to my kids if I wasn't there to see them push someone.
You may find parents who get worked up about it, but in the end I think
ensuring your child's safety takes precedence over sparing the feelings of a
parent.

with my own kids i have let the incident go if my kid is not upset by
it. the times when mine is bothered i will tell the other kid that
"jake" was playing there and we can take turns. i also tell my
kids to use their words and say "no" and add in a little
"share" or "take turns". your little one might not be
talking a lot yet but understands. he will see you be assertive and will
follow your actions. the pushing part is not ok and i
would tell "the
pusher" that. there is no problem telling another kid not to
push. i have said," oh, no, we don't push." kind of in a mellow
voice but looking directly at that kid. kids react well when it's not
there caregiver or parent.

22. . I know exactly what you're talking about because our daughter was the
same way. And I know it's difficult to watch, even if your son
doesn't get upset.

In a parenting/observati on class, we were taught to let things be if

the child did not get upset. If your son does get upset; however,

simply put your hand on the toy or structure and kindly yet firmly

say, "Nicolas is playing with this shovel right now."

23. It took about 24 months before our daughter started sticking up for
herself. Up until then, she saw us intervene when it was necessary,
so her feelings were always validated. She still remains one of
the
gentlest (non-agressive) toddlers on the playground, and she just had
to find her own voice in her own time. :-)

24. Hi, my daughter used to be that way. What I did is tell the kid who pushed
my daughter away that it's my daughter's turn and that he/she will need to wait
for their turn (of course in a really nice way). This also helps your son
realize 1) he can stand up for himself; and 2) he also needs to take turn with
others. It also help the other kid learn how to wait for their turn too. Good
luck.

[Amy]

I swear my children didn't go through the terrible 2's... They went through the terrible 3's!!

Hang in there, Mom. You did the right thing. You absolutely know your children best and know what works and what doesn't. Just as that man knows what is best for his son. He just needs to realize that what is best for his isn't always best for others. I do not yell at my kids in public, and I'm sure there have been times when other parents think I don't discipline them. But I do. In my own way. A way that works with both of my children.

[Suzanne]

How the other parents would describe it? I don't know about the dad, but I expect the mom would mention how much he embarrassed her :)

Yelling doesn't help. Even if you are protecting your kids. Protect them by taking them out of the situation and say something calmly if you must. His anger is totally understandable and his intervention is certainly to be expected but yelling isn't helpful.

[Antony]

Liberalism. Gotta love it. What happened to the days when there was no blah "time out" but swift punishment so that even the most ridiculous child knew never to do it again? No wonder the world is going to hell in a handcart. All these spoiled "timed out" kids are starting to come of age and don't care for how their actions have results that must be owned up to.

[Tom]

Holy shit that dad is as bad as a 5yr old

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[coach outlet]

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[Dr. Stphen Doyne Phd]

You handled this about as well as can be expected, congrats. Sometimes it's difficult to deal with the fact very young children have fairly bad impulse control when they're feeling a strong emotion... not that some adults seem to have outgrown that...